ne aemuleris hominem iniustum nec imiteris vias eius
Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways


Robert Shepherd
yes, mostly caucasian 		The Crime of Punishment
To Smite or to Speak - the Story of Moses and the Rock
Numbers Chapter 20

Hi! I am Robert Shepherd. An American native old enough to remember the fifties and sixties. I came on the scene not long after the Depression and World War II. As a boy, I was well acquainted with, as my mother called it, the "rod of correction." From her perspective, there was nothing more fitting for misbehavior than the stern application of the leather on a sassy boy bottom. If nothing else, I can attest, the experience grabs your attention -- while altering the complection of your posterior! Talking graphically about a personal experience, expecially such an intimate one, runs the risk of degenerating into subjective burlesque, which modesty avoids.

But as a policy issue, let me give some serious advice. I believe that in principle, there is far too much violence in the world already today. Never should we be hasty to recommend MORE violence as a solution. If anything, we should advise anyone in authority to resort to less violence, if or when decisive measures seem to be called for. But on the other hand, my own opinion is that the concept of authority itself must be supported. That is, the basic constitutional viewpoint of responsible, accountable, reasonable authority. Is not parenthood itself the original, under God, for such authority, whether political, or institutional? I believe parents are the prototype and example for the kind of care, yet also the authority, upon which all statehood and legal or political rulership derives its own rationale. See Punish me with kisses.

So as citizens and good neighbors, what should be our advice to young parents? Shouldn't we have a clear opinion ourselves? Should we not strive to be informed? And to inform? Isn't part of wise society and civilization to promote the best possible parents we can? So PLEASE, see both sides - pro and con - below.

Discipline of Children

the uncivil war over spanking

To spank or to speak. This page presents some of the main references from two opposing sides. I emphasize the Christian or biblical support for both positions, while acknowledging that traditional discipline has very old roots in a vast number of non-Christian locales (the Roman fasces, the "scepter" or rod or authority) including among a great many African, Asian, and New World peoples. But is this venerable and almost universal tradition (in history) one which humanity would do well to outgrow?

First, some pro-spank leaning thoughts:

My rebuttal (I hope a fair one)follows this white section

Unspanked Clinton grew up to be a lousy husband?

no guilt sewn into him as a young boy

alt.parenting.spanking ~ 11/27/99 ~ Gail Sheehy book discussed
Is it possible Bill's spank-free upbringing contibuted to his inability to feel genuine remorse over his moral failings as a husband?
Phillip Delves Broughton writes, "Based on conversations with dozens of friends and colleagues of the Clintons, Sheehy [author of the new Hillary's Choice] predicts they will ultimately divorce. 'the main factor that's changed now is that Chelsea is on her own,' she says. 'Hillary is looking more beautiful than she ever looked. whenever women really change their hairstyle dramatically, you always want to watch out, they're maybe looking to change their romantic life as well. She's wearing décolletEfor the first time in the last year. She's whittled down her thighs and she has quite an active social life in New York. I suspect what will happen is that they will lead parallel lives for the next few years....They will have all kinds of good reasons to hardly see one another."

Sheehy says of Hillary, "I've heard from a number of people close to her that she'd had a chin lift, eye tucks, and liposuction on her thighs and behind." Broughton continues, "Mrs Clinton's staff have denied the plastic surgery rumors, but the Manhattan doctor she is alleged to have used, Dr. Cap Lesesne, has said only that he has many politicians and celebrities on his books. Whatever the truth, she is notably perkier looking today than she was at the beginning of the year."

Broughton quotes Sheehy on Bill Clinton's character, "He feels no guilt, because there wasn't any guilt sewn into him as a young boy." Broughton continues, "In her book, Sheehy quotes a psychologist describing Clinton's ability to separate his good and bad sides so clearly as a 'disassociate disorder.'"

Click - A sober discussion disputing the "knee-jerk" anti-spank interpretation of the statistical data.


CONTROVERSIAL SPECIFICS

With an array of Biblical citations



Rev. Arthur Allen
Brother Arthur Allen, church pastor
Is Allen a bad guy or victim of do-gooders?
Could the white establisment be hypocritical bullies?
Allen wonders: "If the white society doesn't want to
whip their children, that's their business. I'm not
trying to make you black, so don't try to make me white."

Oprah recalled how white kids only got `talked to`
whereas she and other black kids got real spankings
But she is now a firm outspoken critic of corporal punishment


Does a stern hand of authority justify a "gestapo" level of intervention (as in the Elian case) by government rescuers? The author of the advice below is 'Jane E. Murphy.' At any rate, parts of it, In my opinion IMO, sound like porn - porn for a spanking fetish. My (Robert Shepherd’s) rebuttal is found beneath the following strongly biblical section by pro-spank authorities.

Spank With Love
a formula for porn?

Pro-Spank Section (by Murphy, Allen, Fugate, Dobson, Hudibras)

The Proverbs have a lot to say about the discipline of children, and when they do,

A. Instruments

References to "rod" and "scourge," see Pr 13:24; 20:30; 22:15; 23:13-14; 29:15, also Heb 12:6

  • Proverbs 13:24 He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.
  • Proverbs 20:30 Living Bible: "Punishment that hurts chases evil from the heart."
  • Proverbs 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.
  • Proverbs 23:13-14 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. [14] Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.
  • Proverbs 29:15 The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother.

I (Jane Murphy) realize that spanking is a very controversial topic today, because of all the terrible instances of child abuse we hear about. Many have equated spanking with child abuse, and told us we must never strike our children in anger. But God's wrath is manifested because he loves us. Anything less would not be love. Here is one of those areas where the message from the Bible directly contradicts the message we are getting from the society around us. Which word will we heed? Remember: the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Are we smarter than God? Are the parenting gurus and social workers of today smarter than God? If not, then we need to submit our minds to His, and be willing to do what He tells us.

If we will think about it a little, I think we will see that this is eminently reasonable. So let me offer some Biblical

B. Guidelines for spanking

1. Why to spank: Out of love. Pr 13:24; Heb 12: 6,11

The ultimate goal is that children grow up to be self-disciplined adults.

  • Proverbs 13:24 He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.
  • Hebrews 12:6 the Lord scourges those he loves, and he flogs everyone he accepts as a son. The Lord sometimes allows very harsh discipline into our lives; but He does it because He loves us. The same is true for us and our kids.
  • Hebrews 12:11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful

Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. Do I want my kids to grow up to be righteous, and enjoying peace at the core of their beings? Then in love, I will discipline them, even in a painful way.

2. When to spank
a. For willful disobedience.
"When you are defiantly challenged, win decisively." --James Dobson. The amazing thing to me is that some parents just don't see the willful defiant disobedience in their kids; or they don't think they can do anything about it. We can. And if we love them, we will "win decisively."

b. On a regular basis. Eccles. 8:11

c. Consistently. Col. 3:21
Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged. Failure to be consistent provokes the child and discourages him more than dramatic, impassioned -- but loving and consistent -- discipline. Think how insecure we would be if the civil laws changed every day at the whim of the police. Think how angry it would make you if the speed limit here on Second Avenue changed every other day, to whatever the officer thought it should be.

d. Persistently. Prov 13:24
He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him. [betimes = diligently, frequently]. All too often, the kids just outlast us. They keep pushing and pushing and eventually we give up, and they win. But it's not good for them to win this kind of 'battles of the will.'

Prov 25:28, Like a city whose walls are broken down is a man who lacks self-control. We don't want our kids to grow up to be vulnerable like that; we want them to be strong and able to resist temptation with strong self-control.

e. Train the child to obey the first time you speak.
Which time you give an instruction do you want your child to obey it? 1st? 2nd? 5th? You can control which it will be. Use action to get action, not emotion. This avoids nagging, yelling, anger, etc.

3. How to spank
How we do it is almost more important than that we do it. If we do it wrong, it is worse than not doing it at all.

a. Painfully, but lovingly
Jane Murphy says we have to make the price of disobedience so high the child will be left thinking about it for a long time. Hebrews 12:11, "No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful." Firmly and dramatically: but not abusively. SPANK them, but never overdo it or you may harm the gluteal muscle, underneath. We are absolutely opposed to child abuse. In fact, these days even the laws are "opposed" to child abuse, (It has taken a while). Biblical discipline is training in righteousness, not abuse. Always has been.

On small children don't overdo it. So how about a flyswatter on the skin? The epidermis quickly heals, but the memory (and the lesson) remains forever. A boy should not resist or brace, but if he does, it is natural that the rod or scorge will affect the flesh a few days.

b. Meaningfully, even dramatically, but ALWAYS in love
Take the time to focus and direct your wrath. Disciplining minus love is abuse. But love minus discipline is an impossibility. If you love him, "beat" him as Proverbs enjoins, letting God's Spirit fill you and control you. Richard Fugate points out that the Bible repeatedly praises the wrath of God. But the wrath and anger of God is for our benefit. This is really important. The more you spank your child in anger, the more you should also do it in love. Only thus will it be training in righteousness and for the sake of the child's long term character benefit.

c. Without embarrassment to the child.
Jane Murphy suggests that we discipline in private. But do not let the child use the public as a defense. If you have guests over, or you are in a public place, take the child to a private place. Praise in public; reprove in private.

d. Watch what you say.
Prov 12:18 Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. Be careful not to break the spirit. Do not belittle the child, or ask rhetorical questions like, "How could you be so stupid?" Those do more lasting damage than the spanking. Let the rod speak reprovingly, so YOU can speak comfortingly.

Follow with instruction about the exact nature of the offense. The child needs to know exactly what they did wrong (typically "you disrespected Mommy"; or "you broke a rule, didn't you?");
the purpose of the spanking (to train them to obey; it is future oriented); and what they can do to avoid another spanking in a similar situation. Don't ask them why they did that; they often can't articulate the reason, and it is irrelevant. But make sure they understand what they did wrong and that you have to whip them severely because you love them. (And you can ask them to tell you why they got spanked.)

Prov 29:15, The rod of correction imparts wisdom, and it will do that more effectively if we follow the spanking with instruction.

Begin, Middle, and End with love. Afterwards there should be LOTS of affection, hugs, kisses, caresses and comfort. Forgive and forget. Do not withhold love as a means of discipline--that will break the spirit. It is far more cruel than a sharp physical spanking. Discipline, in love, is kindness and mercy. It is actually the most wonderful expression of love that God can pour through us to our children. We must discipline them as the Spirit leads us, just as God does with us. His love is unconditional.

thanks to Jane Murphy for this

Don't Spare the Rod

The phrase "spare the rod and spoil the child" is often incorrectly attributed to the Christian Bible. It was first written in the 1664 poem "Hudibras" by Samuel Butler

. The following Biblical quotations advocating corporal punishment of children are taken from the book of Proverbs, and the book of Hebrews, in the King James Version of the Bible. The proverbs were written by King Solomon, called the wisest man in the world.

  • Prov 13:24: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes (diligently)."

  • Prov 19:18: "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying."

  • Prov 22:15: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."

  • Prov 23:13: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."

  • Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Sheol)."

  • Prov 29:15: "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame."

  • Hebrews 12:5-6: "Despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him; for whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

See the story of Eli's sons : their father failed to restrain them

1 Samuel chapters 3 -4
And the Lord told (the little boy) Samuel: Behold, I will do a thing in Israel, at which both the ears of everyone that heareth it shall tingle.
In that day ..... [all because these men were not "restrained" by their dad]


Is there something of future value in present suffering?

Heb 12: 3-11
  • 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
  • 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
  • 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
  • 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
  • 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
  • 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
  • 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
  • 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
  • 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Bobbie Pingaro`s humorous poem - (supportive of spanking but I like the whimsical tone)

Is Home a Hell or Home a Heaven? - What about those kids that whuppens truly HELP

Scriptural Rebuttal:

Does discipline require smiting?

by Robert Shepherd


Robert E. Lee knew both the pain of an absentee father (combined with the zealous love of a staunch Bible-believing mom), as well as, later in life, the guilt of having neglected the close aspects of upbringing his own kids. But his verdict on raising kids was consistent with the high ethical approach he took to everything he did: children should be raised with love, not fear. He was clearly a 'dove' on the spanking subject.

Irwin A. Hyman, a contemporary voice critical of spanking, notes, "There are many passages in the Bible to turn to for wisdom in child rearing. We no longer use execution for rebellious children as is recommended in Deuteronomy: "And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die" (21:18-21). Some believe that Solomon's recommendations were actually meant as a reform for the more odious punishment of stoning. Others believe that the "rod" Solomon referred to was the rod of guidance as in the Twenty-third Psalm."

Hyman continues, "Nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus Christ suggest the use of violence against children or adults. In fact, it seems clear that he was against the use of violence as a solution to problems in almost all situations. When the elders wanted to stone an adulterous woman, he said Let whoever is without sin cast the first stone (John 8:7).

Finally, for parents who do spank, please, follow the Spirit and Mercy of the gentle Jesus. Remember how Martin Luther King called on laws (and authority) to be reflective of the christ-like moral ideal of justice (with non-violence). Make sure your discipline is judicious, and that your correcting make things better, rather than worse. In this regard, the example of human Government, and authoritarian Statism, may NOT be your best role model.

Statistics --

It is said that a considerable proportion of inmates in America's overflowing prison system were childhood victims of abuse, whether physical abuse such as horrible beatings, emotional abuse such as a love-starved and affection-less home, or sexual violation and molestation.

Carma Stewart had an eloquent personal testimony on themestream, now closed, in which she describes how she came to realize her deep need for a father's love, and the devestation it wreaks on a child NOT to receive the love of her Daddy. From a different perspective, Brother Jesse Lee Peterson comes a similar verdict on the importance of the Father's role. See it HERE.

Books Available Online

By purchasing them through our Barnes Noble Affiliate you will be helping us keep our efforts going. Thank you.

Pro-spanking

No Fear: A Police Officers Perspective by Robert R. Surgenor
In his eighteen years of service as a law enforcement officer, Detective Robert Surgenor has witnessed an alarming rise in defiance and a total lack of fear in Americas youth.

Lots of Love and a Spanking!: : A Common Sense Discipline Plan for Children from Birth to Age Twelve That Works by Jamie A. Pritchett. Little Palm Press, 1997.

Spanking--why? when? How? by Roy Lessin, Bethany House

Under Loving Command by Pat Fabrizio. A well written overview from one Christian perspective.

To Spank or Not to Spank: A Parents' Handbook by John K. Rosemond, Jeff Koterba (Illustrator) Andrews McMeel Publishing

Just and Painful: A Case for the Corporal Punishment of Criminals. by Graeme Newman, London: Harrow & Heston, 1995. - deals with delinquents and adult offenders as administered in a judicious setting.
Related (modest proposal) authoritarian scenario

To Train up a Child by Michael and Debi Pearl. Stresses the training of a child before the need to discipline arises.

Preparing the Way Ministries Ginger Plowman. Outreach aimed primarily at Christian women (mothers or mothers-to-be). Endorses spanking in certain circumstances, but seems to embrace a fairly balanced overall perspective.

Spank me if you love me by Wendell Robley. This physician, a born-again Christian, argues that the key ingredient to any discipline is the God given love a parent must have for his child. (Dr. Robley's wife Grace may have contributed an unseen influence on this book.) ASIN : 0892210192

Against Spanking

Spare the Rod: Breaking the Cycle of Child Abuse by Phil Quinn.
A committed believing Christian with a conservative faith takes a bold stand against corporal punishment.
Spare the Child : The Religious Roots of Punishment and the Psychological Impact of Physical Abuse by Philip Greven.
This is a richly researched, acutely unsettling study of corporal punishment in the United States. It focuses on the "Christian" use of Biblical texts to justify corporal punishment and its destructive legacy in our culture.

Shame, Images of God and the Cycle of Violence by Jeanette Anderson Good

Beating the Devil out of Them: Corporal Punishment in American Families, by Murray A. Straus. New York: Free Press, 1994. A major classic in this discipline.

Corporal Punishment Handbook, by Adah Maurer. 1977.

For Your Own Good : Hidden Cruelty in Child-Rearing and the Roots of Violence by Alice Miller,

Campaigns Against Corporal Punishment by Myra Glenn State Univ of New York Pr;

The Untouched Key : Tracing Childhood Trauma in Creativity and Destructiveness by Alice Miller, Hildegarde Hannum, Hunter Hannum

History of Corporal Punishment by George Ryley Scott. 1974. (Original title: Flagellation) ASIN : 0810339781

"A Child is being Beaten: A Contribution to the Study of the Origin of Sexual Perversion" (1919). by Sigmund Freud. Reprinted in the Standard Edition of the Complete Psychological Works of Sigmund Freud. (Consult a university library.)

The uncivil war over spanking spoiling or spanking -- or 'sparing the rod'

Christian Discipline (Greven Discussion) from Loren & Bonnie Cobb

Erotic Arousal Linked With Pain

In a paper titled 'A Child Is Being Beaten,' Freud noted that some patients connected feelings of pleasure with expressed fantasies of being beaten and that these fantasies excited considerable shame and guilt. He also observed that being beaten on the bare bottom was a common element in these fantasies and that sometimes the fantasies reflected genuine childhood experience. Inevitably, a spanking on the bare buttocks carries with it penile stemulation, especially if the child is either across the knee or lying down on something. These fantasies illustrate the link between pain and erotic stemulation.
                (See Natalie Shainess, Chapter 11, Sweet Suffering )

Steven Shainberg's
Secretary
"Secretary" (2002)


    Spanking and Fetishism

The "hot" link between spanking and sexual arousal - Web Page

I Was a Teenage Dominatrix by Shawna Kenney. Retro Systems Press, 1999. [Review]

Whips and Kisses: Parting the Leather Curtain by Mistress Jacqueline (housewife turned hooker, now a pyschologist)

Screw the Roses, Send Me the Thorns: The Romance and Sexual Sorcery of Sadomasochism by Philip Miller and Molly Devon. Mystic Rose Books, 1995.

Kiss of the Whip: Explorations in SM by Jim Prezwalksi. Leyland Publishing, 1994.

Between The Body And The Flesh: Performing Sadomasochism by Lynda Hart. Columbia University Press, 1998.

S&M: Studies in Dominance & Submission by Thomas Weinberg, editor. Prometheus, 1995.

SM 101: A Realistic Introduction by Jay Wiseman. Berkeley, CA, 1992.

"Whip me, spank me, gentrify me" by Annalee Newitz. Online.

Christian masochism right out of religion's heart Self-abnegation and the mystical way. Online.

Bound to Be Free: The SM Experience by Charles Moser, J. J. Madeson. Continuum, 1998.

A Defense of Masochism by Anita Phillips. St. Martin's Press, 1998.

Masochism : Coldness and Cruelty by Gilles Deleuze, Leopold Von Sacher-Masoch, Jean McNeil . Zone Books, 1989.

Pain and Passion: A Psychoanalyst Explores the World of S & M by Robert J. Stoller. Perseus Press, 1991.

The Mastery of Submission: Inventions of Masochism (Cornell Studies in the History of Psychiatry) by John K. Noyes . Cornell University Press, 1997.

The English Vice, by Ian Gibson. London: Duckworth, 1978.

S-M the Last Taboo by Gerald and Caroline Greene. Blue Moon Books, Incorporated / June 1996




    - Gentle Words -    
- Gentle Touch -
Ephesians 4 : 32



Sometimes our path is a paradox. Psychiatrist M. Scott Peck, a Christian believer, argues (1983) that: "The path of love is a dynamic balance of opposites, a painful creative tension of uncertainties, a difficult tightrope between extreme but easier courses of action. Consider the raising of a child. To reject all its misbehavior is unloving. To tolerate all its misbehavior is unloving. We must somehow be both tolerant and intolerant, accepting and demanding, strict and flexible. An almost godlike compassion is required."